Hello All,

I have a set of Roycroft Princess Candlesticks in a brass wash with four interesting 'artifact' Roycroft symbol marks on the base underside of both sticks. I can't seem to get more than one image posted here -- see various images on Flikr @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/67689005@N00/.

Whereas the usual "Roycroft" middle mark symbol is clearly stamped (i.e., indented) in the typical location on the base top, the four 'artifact' marks appear as raised marks (i.e., convex) on the base undersides. I have not seen this on the base of any other set of Princess or other model Roycroft candlesticks. I am labelling these as 'artifact' marks because my thought is that they are 'artifacts' of manufacturing. It's difficult to see, even first hand, but the "R" in the 'artifact' mark may even be reversed, which would somewhat explain the raised aspect of this mark -- as if it was punched through a thin material. However, there is no evidence of these marks on the base tops. Can any of the metalsmiths (or others) out there comment on how and why these marks may have been produced?

As an aside, the brass colour on these sticks is closer to gunmetal -- a brassy blue -- that may or may not be original. David Kornacki of Roycroftcopper.com fame indicated to me that the Roycroft brass was variously applied by electoplating and chemical washes. He has a number of variants of the brass wash in his collection. However, when I was removing old green wax from the inside of the candle receptacle I exposed a bright gold brass finish that the wax had covered. I suspect that the original bright gold brass finish on my Princess sticks has oxidized somehow. This was supported by gently using 00 steel wool on the base bottom to reveal a bright brass colour. I've grown to appreciate the gunmetal brass colour and don't want to mess with the patina -- it will stay as is.

And one more note on these candlesticks: the underside of the base has 6.00 grease pencilled in black! See the last image on Flikr. While it was likely visible when I first received these, I did not notice the 6.00 until I used Goof Off to clean the sticks up. Could this be an original price from the Roycroft shop? My reprint of a Roycroft catalogue shows the original price to be $5.00...

Your comments on any part of this post would be most welcome.

Best Regards,

Copperoak

I am replying to my own post in order to an image of the 6.00 in grease pencil on the underside of the Princess stick base. Also evident are the four raised 'artifact' Roycroft middle marks.

Best Regards,

Copperoak

I don't know why the images are so large (they're under 600KB). Can the moderator fix the images?

In the meantime, see the Roycroft Princess Stick Photoset at http://www.flickr.com/photos/6...s/72157615943823917/.

Thanks for your patience.

Copperoak.

Copperoak,

This kind of investigation really gets my fluids flowing. This is just the sort of mystery I thrive on. What you have discovered is that during the period that your sticks were made, the Roycroft shop was using an anvil that had a Roycroft mark on the surface of this anvil. Each of the four plans that form the piramidal base were texture with a crosspeen hammer on the same anvil. Note also that the anvil had a round depression in one corner that is reapeated on each of the 4 underside planes just like the reversed Roycroft mark. I suspect there are others like your.

It is not unreasonable to believe that the 6.00 mark may have been an original price.

Thank you for sharing this with us.

Best,

Hi Fred,

Thank you for sharing your insight -- it's appreciated and makes sense. Perhaps further digging will reveal these 'artifact' marks relegate certain pieces to a much more specific manufacturing time frame than we are currently aware of.

Best Regards,

Copperoak

Here's an image of both Roycroft Princess sticks.

Best Regards,

Copperoak

I have the same pair of candlesticks so I did need to check and see if had a price, mine do not. Do you use them? I use mine with dripless candles, for the most part they work well.

Junkie, are your sticks from the same middle mark period? If so can you check to see if your sticks have the same Roycroft "ghost mark".

I have a Princess stick with an early mark and mine does not have the ghost image.

It's pretty exciting to make this discovery.

Fred

A&C Junkie,

Our home is filled with period A&C furniture and decor, most of which is used everyday as contemporary pieces would. However, there are a few things that I just can't bear to use as intended, mostly from my hammered copper collection -- including my Princess sticks. They are now performing the function of 'decor'. This may appear contrary to the A&C philosophy of having nothing in your home that you do not use. My rationale is that their function has changed to from that of candlestick to that of 'decor' or accent in the sense of a sculpture (or painting) -- at least that's what I tell my wife! We actually have 'lesser' A&C hammered copper candlestick that we'll use with bees wax candles.

Best Regards,

Copperoak

Copperoak,

Is it possible to tell if the R in the raised marks on the bottom of the base are facing left or right? If they are facing left then my theory of how they got there is probably correct. Even your closeup is not clear enough for me to tell if it is a mirror image of the R in the mark.

Fred

Hi Fred,

I've just examined all eight (four per base underside) of the raised artifact/ghost marks with a 20X loupe (hand lens) and not one mark shows clearly the "R" or anything below. The 'expressions' were not strong enough to indicate if the mark has been reversed.

However, the task you assigned me has still proven to be fruitful. I was able ascertain a number double stampings of these raised marks, suggesting multiple contact of a hammer or? In some cases the 'cross' is split as if the top half of the cross was stamped, and then the bottom half with part of the orb that contains the unseen R was stamped a little to the left or right, depending on the mark. Unfortunately, these extra marks are difficult to capture without a macro lens, which I may dig out of the closet some time.

Also, the "round depression" that you pointed out in you original reply are actually raised dots, and are clearly visible in the same spot in every plan. There does not appear to be any double stampings of the dot. Hope this helps.

Copperoak

Fred mine do not have ghost marks, do you use yours?

Thank you both for your prompt responces. The multiple impressions is in keeping with my thought that the Roycroft orb and cross on the underside of your candlestick was caused by the supporting block of steel used by the craftsmen. The raised dots are caused by depressions in the same block. I think you will be able to notice similar raised impressions on each face of the piramidal base.

My single early candlestick does not have these raised marks.

I have sent out feelers to other collectors to see if I can find other Princess candlesticks with the ghost image.

Fred

Hello All,

Pictured here is the underside base of an early mark Roycroft Princess stick. I could only find an image of one stick from the pair. Note the repeating pattern on the base of a raised broken diagonal line in the same location of every plane/face. This lends more credence to Fred's supporting block theory.

This makes one wonder how many of these supporting blocks/anvils were in employ to manufacture Princess sticks and other pieces requiring a similar form in the Roycroft Shops. Perhaps with more examinations of Princess stick base undersides we'll see grouping of candlesticks based on supporting block/anvil.

Also, does anyone out there know what happened to the Roycroft Copper Shop equipment after it shut down in the 30's? Did Arthur Cole take some of it for the Avon Coppersmith Shop? Is any of it still in the remaining buildings or elsewhere. We're taking a trip to the East Aurora to stay at the Roycroft Inn in June and will poke around for some answers.

Best Regards,

Copperoak

Here's an image of the same base from the top.

Copperoak

Also, note the 'evolution' of Roycroft Princess Candlestick rivet development between the early mark and middle mark sticks.

Seen from below, the early mark (brown finish) rivet appears to be hand made, with many hammer marks, similar to what one might find on OMS and early Benedict candlesticks and smoking items. In the same view of the middle mark (brass finish) rivet we see what appears to be a manufactured rivet, with no hammer marks, similar to later Benedict pieces. From above, both rivets appear similar, with four hammered faces (although the early mark rivets appear more pointed).

Best Regards,

Copperoak

I will examine my early Princess stick and see if there are similar marks on mine. I do remember that the rivets are similar to yours and there are errant hammer marks that were put there as they were peining the heads on the rivets. I have no information on the whereabouts of the tools from the copper shop.

I suggest you call ahead with your question. That way they might be able to contact someone who might know the answers to your questions. Is there not a museum there as well?

Best,
Fred

Hi Fred,

We've never been to East Aurora, but it would appear that the Elbert Hubbard Roycroft Museum is located in at 362 Oakwood Avenue in the donated home of former Roycroft Leather Shop head, George ScheideMantel. Here's a link: http://www.roycrofter.com/museum.htm.

There are also a number of other museums in the town, including the Fisher-Price Museum.

One could also zip over to Syracuse to see the Stickley Museum in the original L.&J.G. Building (I believe) and then tour the new L.&J.G. plant. Here's a link to the museum: http://www.stickleymuseum.com/index.cfm

The Rocroft and Stickley Museums both have limited hours, so visits have to be strategic -- particularly for us coming from western Canada!

Any advice on other sights or attractions (good restaurants)along this vein the East Aurora-Syracuse area by those who have been there would be most appreciated by us!

Best Regards,

Copperoak