Hello!!
I just bought a Copper Fireplace insert
Like some of the ones found in the gustav stickley Catalogs..It awsomely hand hammered
but someone polished it to a shiny copper colour...A friend of mine told me to try ammonia
I had a piece of copper that i got ahold of
and tryed to see if the colour would change..
it did but its very muddy looking...Ive also tryed some metal oxadation cemicals..but faild
to have an all over patina...I dont want to try and patina this piece and then mess it up
then i guess i would have to polished it shiny again...So anyone out there know of a safe way to patina copper? Thank you

ADAM The Mission oak Kid!!!

Adam,

I suggest not patinating it at all since it is a fireplace insert. The first time you use the fireplace it will begin a series of color changes that will change the look of the copper insert.

Ammonia used on copper to color works if you fume it. You will also get greens, blues and blacks on the copper surface.

Liver of sulfur is an old standby for coloring the copper to brown and black. It tends to be a bit spotty and requires patience and recoating to develope an even patina.

Fred

Adam,

I agree with FZ, if left alone, the piece will begin to change on it's own over time. I've been collecting copper for many years and I have pieces that were polished and have regained some nice color over time. Case in point, I have a great Roycroft nut bowl that I bought about 6 years ago. At that time, someone had taken the entire finish off of the piece. The piece has slowly oxidized over the 6 years and now has a nice even warm patina. Nothing like the original Aurora brown, but nice enough to fit into the decor. If you just can't wait or you feel the need, have a seasoned veteran that is familiar with patination do the work. I know many people who thought they could do it themselves but ended up wrecking alot of nice pieces. If you need a list of people who do this kind of work, let us know and we'll be glad to point you in the right direction. I've had pieces done in the past and it's well worth the wait.

Jason

http://www.benedictstudio.com

This is a good topic - akin to refinishing wood; refinishing for copper!

I've tried selenious acid, which is the common ingredient in some of the commercial solutions, but it came out spotty so I assume you have to create a total bath (or dunk tank) to have it work right. I've also tried the high heat and then plunge in cold water trick - nice rainbow of reds, greens, blue-black depending on the piece and what was already on it. Just heating copper over the stove will give it a chalky black (but it rubs off easily), again depending on the original condition. If you're really interested I believe you can take a course at the Roycroft campus and apply an Aurora Brown finish on a piece, but I doubt they actually give you the formula. There are a few commercial water based glaze products out there for 'antiquing' anything you want, and I was thinking of trying to someday play with these in a thinned out format and see what happens - fill in the depressions and rub out the highlights approach. As with any top quality piece however, always use caution or pass it to a pro.

A tried and true - non poisonous method for restoring copper patina. The commercial fluids are all highly toxic - even liver of sulfur can make you very sick.
Raw linseed preferred but if not available, use the common boiled.
clean the piece entirely in hot soapy water - rinse throughly and dry by hand with a clean towel -
Now, clean the piece again with acetone on a clean rag - it will dry on it's own quickly.
Do not touch with your fingers no matter how clean your hands are - you will leave prints which will show up on the piece when done. I suggest wearing clean cloth gloves.
With a new cheap brush - brush linseed oil entirely over the surface - it is sticky & oily and will remain so for quite a while - this is good, since linseed is a powerful oxident and works while it is damp. Store the piece in your basement or dark still-air area like a closet. You will start to see oxidation within a few days. Re-coat the piece if the linseed starts to get hard - best to clean off again with acetone and re-coat. When the piece is done, wipe all linseed off with acetone - wash,dry quickly and coat with a wax sealer. Beeswax paste, Butchers wax also - even Turtle Wax is great. With Turtle wax, get the dried white off with a toothbrush. Warning about Linseed - all rags used,, throw in sunlight to dry out - if thrown in a can, the wet rags/paper towels will catch fire (even days later) from the rapid oxidation. I have photos of new vases 'curing' with this method if you'd like to see them.
rich

Rich,

I would love to see the images of the vase. Thanks for sharing this with us.

Fred

Good morning Fred - I will take some photos this afternoon and post them tonight.

Also, another good messy method for copper patination - 2 cups copper sulfate & a teaspoon of salt mixed in 5 gallons (?) of water. I use a contractors bucket with a lid. I presume this is 5 gallons..maybe 10? In any event,,it's two cups of sulfate.
Note: I am presuming that all wax & varnishes have been removed with acetone/turp etc.

The piece has to be soaked for a few hours to overnight- it will result initially in a dull brown surface -
rinse off - and put outdoors in sunlight - (it is highly photosensitive) it will turn to a near black over the next few days - make sure to rotate it. Highlight with dry Bon Ami on a cloth - this will bring the sublayers of brown out - leaving the deep hammerblows & chasing very dark. My opinion is that this simple formula was probably used on the vast majority of A&C copper at the time. After highlighting, if you want an orange red cast - spray with simple 3-6% solution of hydrogen peroxide - a very rapid oxidizer & fixer- make sure to keep the piece wet with H202 until you get the result - it is relatively quick. Rinse & wax. Note that the copper sulfate patina will continue to darken richer over time. Also note that patination takes practice - not a lot,,but if anyone is doing this for the first time, I suggest patinating copper scraps, joints, pipe,etc., from the hardware store.
Take Care,
Rich

Rich,

You are a wealth of information and your willingness to share is greatly appreciated and I will try both these methods this weekend.

Fred

Photo of pieces turning under Linseed Oil

http://www.eclipse.net/~rbreitz/Linseed.jpg

the darkest,,front row,,2nd from right was 'painted'about 4 weeks ago. The others within the past week. Note the 'greening' verdigris colored oil in the grooves. Yes, they start out going 'blotchy' - I have no explanation for this, oxidation with this method, is very much like frost when it develops on a window.
My normal patina is flame - done in a kiln. These are for fun and to escape boredom.
There are probably ways to speed this up,,either hot linseed,,,a different environment, I don't know. Lots of room for experimentation here - but this regular method works fine if you are slightly patient.
r


rich

Rich,

The image is great. I can see the blotchines and like you mention it is probably a natural crystaline growth of patination. You have done much research in your coloring and it shows in your finished work. Congratulations.

Fred

Dear Rich,

Your vases are awesome. I like the tall one in the back on the right the best. Do you sell these? Your ideas are sound and practical. Anybody can do what you suggest. Thanks for the great ideas.

Now Rich, do you anticipate that the buyer will have to re-apply the turtle wax finish as it wears off? That finish may not be practical for a fireplace screen that will get hot. But I do wonder why you stop the oxidation process with any kind of a sealer. Even lacquer on brass knobs and door sets wears off easily. Anytime you touch copper, the oils from human skin leaves behind some kind of a print.

Bev.

Bev,

Rich is quite an acomplished metalsmith and designer. I have admired his works for years and also admire his ability to make a living from his craft. He creates a wide variety of items in copper and silver: trays, vases, placques and boxes. Each is stunning and well executed in heavy gauge copper and finished to perfection. I am glad he has chosen to participate in this forum.

This is not a payed endorsement.

Fred

copper sulfate as in the same stuff used as a fungicide or an algacide???...available at a plant shop or a pond shop???

Copper Sulphate is also known as Blue Vitreol. Crystaline form is available at many hardware stores and known as Root-Kill. It is used as an algaecide for water treatment. Relatively inexpensive when bought that way. I think it is only available in diluted liquid form for use in pond and acquariams. I believe the formula that Rich gave uses lump or granular chemical.

I have used a copper sulphate and sodium chloride solution to patinate copper a green color. I sometimes use ammonium chloride instead of common salt.

Fred

Hi Bev,Fred & Stonecat
Wax,,,this is funny stuff. Beeswax & Turp as Fred has mentioned, is the best in my opinion. 50% melted wax poured into 50% cool turpentine in a jar. Shake it and let it set till cool. I've been using this for many years. It delays the progression of patina (oxide) but will not prevent the eventual natural darkening since it lets the oxygen through but not water or humiditiy - this is only my observation, not scientific proof. I do know that the ancient Egyptians coated both their wood and metals in beeswax. Beeswax will never come off unless you use a solvent or burn it off. The piece can be handled thousands of times - all you have to do is buff it with a clean cotton cloth. Butchers Wax seems to be identical - I just don't like whatever drier they use,,it stinks. Turp to me is a very pleasant odor. Now,,this turtle wax,,I'm not sure what is in it - but it works and does not come off a household item. Yes,,it comes off a car,,I think it oxidizes itself into a powder with sunlight, along with the paint, and the rain will rinse it off. I think it would take years to come off a piece that was indoors. Bev - you are right about the heat from a fireplace screen or backplate - any wax would burn - leaving a dark stain.
Fred & Stonecat -yes,,blue vitriol - pure blue crystals. You can get this very cheaply from McMaster-Carr - but must be bought in a 25lb tub. Like sulfuric acid, it lasts forever and you only need 2 cups. Farm stores like Agway carry this in smaller amounts.

Fresh pink water pipes in your basement will go brown in a year if not oiled or sealed. When looking at these very old, 100 year old pieces, you are seeing the color of time, oxygen, moisture & environment. I don't think any of them started out that way. I use mostly old copper that scrappers save for me. Taken from old houses, factories & breweries. The older the copper - the richer and more unique the patina. It varies greatly from lot to lot. Old copper had many trace elements that they couldn't refine out. New copper is pure copper - beautiful patinas also,,but different and hard to explain.
My favorite pure Arts & Crafts coins (even the text) - the Wheat Penny & the Buffalo Nickle -Look at those beautiful "Wheat" pennies - and the amazing nut brown colors they show when you oil or wax them. Some of them, not sure of the years, were bronze - copper & tin and very distinct.
rich

P.S. Bev - after the patina is developed - it has to be sealed with wax. Two reasons,,it brings out the beauty of the patina - and protects the patina from further patinating from oxidizing finger prints. Human sweat & oils - very oxidizing. Some folks are more oxidizing than others - unbelievably so. Sterling silver will rapidly tarnish - first yellow - then grow to gray/black with fingerprints.
Some folks are acidic - I know this sounds ridiculous - but their hands will cause white clouds on sterling.

Wow, awesome information, mysteries solved, answers leading to more questions

What about heat? This has been discussed a bit before in another thread. Does adding heat help or speed things up with either the linseed or copper sulphur soak? You mention maybe using hot linseed oil but instead of putting the linseed treated pieces in a basement, what about a warm attic? Should you heat up the water used for the copper sulphate soak? Should you use distilled water instead of tap water?

Another new question. Say you have an old piece that has been cleaned (but has also started to re-darken) and you want to try to patinate it back to a dark colour, but it also has a couple darker spots or rings from a pot or glass or whatever. If you try one of the techniques will the piece even up in colour or will the already dark spots just keep getting darker than the rest of the piece? Is there a way around this - seal the spots first maybe with wax, or attempt to polish them out a bit to be uniform with the rest, or polish the whole piece down to be uniform?

Good Morning Stonecat -
I think that a warm attic would be a great place - as long as it doesn't dry out the linseed - this has to stay sticky for it to work. Try it!! For copper sulfate - I've always used it cold - but suspect heat would absolutely speed the process up - perhaps put an aquarium heater in the bucket?? I forgot to mention - the water that I am using is well water - very still with not a lot of bubbles - if you are using town water - you might want this to set for a few hours or days. Fill a tumbler with your tap water and let it sit - if lots of bubbles appear on the side - make sure this solution sits for a while before adding the piece you are treating. This came up a few years ago with someone I gave this too - they had SPOTS on their piece! Turned out it was bubbly water. In any event,,bubbles or not - let this solution sit for a day or so before putting your piece in.
Dark Rings & Exisiting spots - I really hate to say this,,but they will just grow darker with the added patina. The entire piece needs to be cleaned off - and put into Sulfuric Acid - to be turned pink. You need a fresh base to start.
Don't be afraid of sulfuric acid - this is natural and ancient stuff that will NOT harm you if you have the slightest regard for it. I am in it constantly day after day for 40 years. there is NO substitute for it. It is an essential tool of silver/coppersmithing. Nitric is hideous- I never use it. It will kill you. You can get sulfuric acid at Home Depot. Drain Cleaner - Make sure it says SULFURIC ACID BASED on the container. If you can't find it - let me know. You don't want the other stuff- it is not acid. Pour a quart of this into a 10 gallon plastic bucket of water - I use a large Horse Feed bucket - it is much wider than a contractor's bucket. It will get hot - then cool off. That same bucket of acid will last 20 years or longer. You can keep this in an outdoor shed. Just add water when it evaporates. When it turns completely green - hang an old iron frying pan in it - the copper will precipitate out to the bottom in beads. Acid/water will become perfectly clean, and it will seem to recharge itself. Syphon the clean stuff off and reuse.
Put your item in the acid for a few hours. It will turn pink. I have a small bucket which is drilled with holes - this for lowering the item. Also, I have another large bucket of clean water next to the acid - this to rinse.
After rinsing - while still wet - rub down completely with Bon Ami and rinse again - and don't touch with your fingers when dry - handle with paper towels. Dry it quickly with paper towels - water spots will develop if you don't. They are worse than fingerprints. If you get finger prints on it,,then acetone on a cotton ball to remove the prints.
Bon Ami does not scratch- it burnishes- it is ground feldspar - a flat molecule. Years ago when making pieces for Georg Jensen,,a final handpolish of Bon Ami or Chalk dust gave the classic silver "moon" glow to the silver. It does the same for copper- will not scratch.
If I were reading all my blabber - I would think this all very complicated. It is NOT...believe me.

Thanks, more great advice. Now I have to find the time to indulge in all this.

Rich,

What wonderful pearls of information. Know that what you are sharing with us will be put to use. I am currently restoring the patina on a footed bowl by Theodor Hanford Pond and it is important that the piece not be over heated since the foot is applied with low temp lead or tin based solder. I will shortly be experimenting with the copper sulphate and salt solution for this piece.

For years I have used a more concentrated solution of copper sulphate and ammonium chloride for coloring copper green. I have had great luck with bury patinas using household ammonia and salt and water to saturate sawdust. I will share images of the patinas I am getting with this.

Thanks again Rich,

Fred