It's back!! ...and he's raised the price by 1000..thanks to some information from a "knowledgeable collector" (..I wonder if he sells it if I get a cut.. )

http://cgi.ebay.com/c1910-RED-MUSTARD-PAINT-ARTS-CRAFTS...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You should definitely get a cut Stonecat if it sells. However, I don't think he will sell it at that price especially when you factor in how much time and effort it would take to restore it.

The complete transcript of my email (after his initial listing at $1250 start):

"Greetings. I was following your sale for c1910 RED & MUSTARD PAINT ARTS & CRAFTS PERIOD CUPBOARD and thought you might like to know that this piece was made by the Shop of the Crafters of Cincinnati. It can be seen in the 1906 reprint of one of their catalogs (originally called No. 261, Cellarette). It was not a painted piece and would have originally been in one of the oak finishes quoted in the catalog as... dull wax finishes, such as Weathered, Fumed, Flemish, Austrian, or Early English. As a result, this might be why it didn't get any bids from anyone that recognized it, because it would have to be totally stripped and refinished. It also had a lazy-susan and small racks for glasses, on the inside that would need to be redone to make it complete. I don't think the hardware is original either. Sorry for any bad news, but this might help if you want to re-list it and having it identified as Shop of the Crafters should help. Good Luck!"

...so he left out the stuff about needing a complete restoration job, which yes kills the value but instead he put the starting bid up! I figured if he posted most of the info from my message he might get someone to bite at his original starting price. I doubt anyone will bite at his new price but all it takes is one 'hard core gotta have it' SoC fanatic to see the listing and bingo. I guess that's what you hope for on eBay.

So how much would you pay for it? Assuming I really wanted it, had the money, and could drive to pick it up I would maybe pay 4-500.

What do you think it would be worth if it were in better condition but not perfect (say, all the parts were there, original finish and hardware). Have any of these sold recently? I think it is a neat piece.

I would guesstimate 1500-2000 range in reasonable original condition or totally refinished, maybe more in very good original condition. As is, it might barely be worth his original start at 1250 (if you can pick it up at little cost, otherwise add delivery, gas etc.), but then 250-300 for a pro strip job (based on what I think the guys I sometimes use, would charge), 200-400 (?) for repairs, 200 for finishing, plus a price for your time, puts it well over 2000 as a refinished and reconstructed piece, so 1250 would only apply for a hard core SoC person, otherwise I wouldn't want to pay more than a few to several hundred.

I'll check some old Craftsman catalogs, because I think I've seen it somewhere.

Did you know you can add comments/ask questions to items being sold on e-bay? Just wondered if you knew that...

quote:

Originally posted by gaild:
Did you know you can add comments/ask questions to items being sold on e-bay? Just wondered if you knew that...

Yes, but posting the message/question is controlled by the seller, meaning if they don't like the message they don't post it, but if it helps with the sale they usually do. You can't just send a message and say that their price is too high or the piece needs too much work, and have it automatically posted. Listings would get spammed like crazy as a result. I've sent messages that have never been posted, or like in this case the seller has just used what they wanted and made a revision to the description.

Well his auction ended with no bids. It will be interesting to see if he lists it again and what the starting price will be.

I would guess the refinish job to be more in the $550-$650 range.. There is alot of detail work there.. I guess it would all depend also if they were stripping the interior of the cabinet (Kind of silly to just strip the exterior.. )


It will take $100 in stripper alone to cut through all that paint..

...one more time...ITS BACK AGAIN!

http://cgi.ebay.com/rare-1906-SHOP-OF-THE-CRAFTERS-ARTS...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

..at least this time he identifies it as Shop of the Crafters in the title, which he skipped last time; otherwise the entire listing looks unchanged except for the start price..now he's trying a little below the middle of the first and second listings..$1650

I know I've seen a good picture of this piece somewhere but after much searching, no luck. It would be great to know what the original finish looks like because it would help gauge how much work is needed.

Oh boy... or maybe not just one more time.

I am not sure what you mean about seeing what the original finish looked like in terms of determining the work that needs to be done. I would assume it was quartered white oak with dark maybe fumed stain and shellac/wax finish. Did you see the SOC ad on ebay?

http://www.kynd.net/~bcove/1904CellaretteG.jpg

It says "all dull finishes" and "quartered oak." The cellarette in the picture is similar to the one for sale just much more simple.

Neat ad. "We'll send you Crafter Furniture on approval" ..the old way of saying 'no money down and no payments until 2007 !'

The cabinet in the ad is "No.259 Cellarette. Gentleman's Combination Liquor and Cigar Case", as seen in the 1906 reprint catalog. The ad says to send for the 96 page catalog. The 1906 catalog is only 64 pages, so I would speculate a bigger product line after 1906 meaning a bigger catalog. The ad picture is identical to the one in the 1906, so I guess it was also used in other years (common to use the same pics year over year, back then, however an original SoC catalog went on eBay a few weeks back that had just line drawings and it was assumed to be an earlier one).

In regard to finishes, I was thinking that there might be some two-tone staining or shellac colouring, or maybe wax colouring, with this one - I'm sure I've seen this with some SoC stuff that has framing over a background, kind of thing - more research required here.

The 1906 catalogue has a lot to say about finishes - Don and myself discussed it in another thread a while ago. The options were:

dull waxed finishes such as Weathered, Fumed, Flemish, Austrian, or Early English...as stated at the bottom of each page

...and then at the end of the catalog...The Crafters' finish is soft and mellow, bringing out, not concealing, the natural beauty of the wood. Choice of these finishes can be had: Weathered and Fumed Oak, Waxed. Cathedral and Flemish Oak, Waxed. Tavern and Antwerp Oak, Waxed. Early English and Golden Oak, Waxed or Polished.

..and I think the added historical notes in the catalog say there were 12 different finishes..amazing, I wonder what the real differences were back then - maybe a couple of them were identical!! I have an original catalog from the Come-Packt company that has 8 colour samples for stains and I would say four of them are the same, and another two are the same, and the two others are different (one being green) so it might have just been a marketing ploy to impress people with multiple finishes or one company copied the names of another company to try to make their stuff sound like it was compatible, multiple names but same basic colour(s)

here is the text of a message i just sent the seller of the cabinet:

i agree that SOC pieces are somewhat more rare than stickley or limbert, but not that they are worth much more. they are not in the mainstream of A&C manufacturers and dont have the name recoginition of the stickleys and otheres. some SOC pieces do bring good prices, but condition is the key. the fact that your piece has been painted at least once, it has lost one of the prime considerations in pricing, original finish. that typically cuts value by 50% or more. your piece also has missing shelves and brackets in the interior. that further reduces value. my feeling is you should be looking more in the $500-700 range.

good luck on your auction.

this is much like the discussion on the limbert rocker, refinish and damage kill the value.

another SOC piece, much nicer than the cabinet at a very reasonable estimate.

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/83-SHOP-OF-THE-CRAFTER...dZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

and yet another...

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/107-SHOP-OF-THE-CRAFTE...dZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

..bumping this again for fun...

Our friend tried again at 1250 but no takers..

http://cgi.ebay.com/1906-RED-MUSTARD-PAINTED-SHOP-OF-TH...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

if they would strip and refinish, they might be able to get close to that.

but SOC enthusiast/collectors are a much smaller subgroup of A&C folks. that form just may not be that desireable.

ONE MORE TIME AT 1250

http://cgi.ebay.com/1906-RED-MUSTARD-PAINTED-SHOP-OF-TH...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I was at a shop a couple days ago and saw a small SOC desk. Single drawer with the typical large square wood handles. It was really neat, I really liked the style, and I would love to have it but it just wasn't very high quality. Exposed screws, no dovetails in drawers, no pins in joints. The quality just isn't there. Of course I haven't seen this piece but if it is of the same quality craftmanship then it just isn't worth what they are asking. But I think we already agreed on that...

I think it's a mixed bag for SOC quality. In some pieces there are 'shortcuts' but in other pieces there is extra effort with detailed inlays and curved cuts and panels. Generic in some regards but better than generic in others. Value and beauty is also subjective, in the eye of the beholder.

With regard to this specific cabinet, it's the extra construction effort for all the curves and cutouts that puts it above generic, and whether you think it works from an aesthetic point of view. The curves and cutouts certainly don't serve a functional purpose and some might say that this is a departure from pure A&C form and function. A similar function generic piece would just be a box shaped cabinet, and some might say this is a better reflection of A&C form. We don't know what the wood looks likes either, under all that paint. In terms of joinery, this one may be no different than an assembly line piece from a generic maker.

All this said, regardless of the piece or maker, I enjoy the overall evaluation process and all the things to consider

Here's a similar SOC cabinet without paint, from a Craftsman auction several years ago: