Those pics in that light look sweet! I do so like the look of tiger oak. Don't kill yourself trying to re-create 100 years of life.

Ralph and SC- will using a urethane poly (water based) after staining seal the grain like it does on oak flooring? Just a couple light coats of semi-gloss finish and hit it 0000 steel wool in between coats to shine it up? It will smooth out the finish, add the depth and gloss the chair needs. It's not an original finish but it is a hardy finish and that chair will look great! The water based stuff can be stripeed off and not hurt the finish if Ken does not like it. Yes? NO? Thanks

Ken, I definitely know what you mean about the grooves but I think it is going to be fine. I would go ahead with it. What stain are you using? Is it Minwax Jacobean? You could go back over it with a brown to blend it all. I use Jacobean then another coat of Jacobean mixed 50/50 with a dark brown. It warms it up and I think it makes it look older.

mrm, I think you are right, poly would fill the grain and make it more smooth. But like you said, way off from the original finish. Of course, they didn't strip and strip and strip and scrub with a brass brush either. Something to think about. So, is the goal to keep it as original as possible, get it back to LOOKING as original as possible or what? Good overall question if you are doing a total refinish.

First question - what stain is that?; looks very different than your first pictures. The 'black' is not just in the pores, it seems to have soaked in to everything except the flake. Original finish Hardens appear to be a very even nutty brown, which could have been fuming and water based stain or just stain but I'm assuming some fuming is involved based on how even the colour looks - examples:




I think at this point I would want to figure out how to get some even brown colour in there, as the next application, like Steve suggests, and then an amber shellac and then a brown wax if you can find it (not black necessarily, at this point).

On the poly question - personal choice I guess, I rarely use it and never when trying a faithful restoration. It works and has its purpose but not for valuable pieces where theres no reason not to be true to the period finishes.

Ok, well let me tell you what I did exactly, and maybe that will have a bearing on how you think i should proceed. I first stained it, using a stain that is a bit of an 'accident'. It is 1 part oil based miniwax red/oak, 1 part oil based miniwax red mahogany, 1 part roofing emulsifier, 1 part denatared alcohol. The roofing asphault is part of Ralph's stain-brew, and the denatured alcohol was a complete error on my part, as i thought i was mixing mineral spirits....duh. Not sure what effect the denatured alcohol has, but unless it will harm the chair, may as well be consistent and keep using the same mixture, yes?
After the stain, i used 1 coat of amber shellac.
So with that said, is there a way to even it up the look without going much darker? It is already darker than i wanted...but as long as it ends up looking nice, that is what matters the most.
Also i have some dark Walnut miniwax stain. Would that even out the color, or would that make it a lot darker?

The alcohol will just evaporate - no worries, but probably not a good idea to add it to your next mix.
The asphalt is obviously the source of the black colour. I don't know if there is a way to bleach some of this out or not, if you want to try, but I have no experience with asphalt. I imagine it has soaked and sealed itself in pretty good. The other option would be to try to sand a bit out and then stain with just a normal period brown colour but this would be at the risk of more unevenness in the colour. If you can live with the black then I would try adding brown stain to get a better brown tone, as suggested (Minwax walnut is fine) but the shellac will have to come off to get the stain to work. If the stain doesn't appear to be soaking in because of the asphalt, then wipe it off, don't let it sit because it will gum up on the surface. So, if there's nothing left in terms of stain options then stick to the amber shellac and brown wax as the way to finish it off.

Before you stain the rest with the asphalt I would take a serious breather and figure out if there is a way to bleach out the black - maybe someone here has an idea. The simplest thing to try is laundry bleach wiped on, maybe several times to see any change, and if you do this evenly and it works then bonus, but if it doesn't work the next thing to try is oxalic acid (aka salts of lemon), and if this doesn't work then finally a commercial wood bleach from a specialty shop and follow the directions closely. Somehow, however, I get this feeling that bleach on asphalt might not work. Experimenting with junk wood is the best option first, so get some scrap white oak (not red oak), put your stain on it, let it dry, and then try to bleach it out. Experimenting on the rocker wouldn't be recommended.

I think the grooves in the wood need to go, and are the main source of the problem. I hereby solemnly swear to NEVER EVER NEVER EVER use a steel wire brush on mission oak furniture ever again!
I appreciate the suggestion on how to get the black out, however i treid just some amber shellac on small section, with no stain, and due to the grooves in the wood, it looks pretty bad as well.
So, back to the drawing board. I think I am just going to strip off the sections I have already done with Methyl chloride, and then try some wood filler on a section or sanding some more with the tougher grit. I sanded and sanded by hand until my arms were ready to fall off with 80 grit and made no little to no headway on the grooves. Orbital sander is a no-no on antiques, right?
Could i go down to a 36 grit sandpaper? Maybe try that or a wood filler?

Orbital , as in the old school style of sander is a no no, but the newer random orbit sanders do a better job, not perfect but better - they can still leave swirls so the key is to do it in stages and maybe the finest grit by hand.

36 grit is pretty harsh and might just equal more scratches and grooves

hmm, so either strip and 80 grit it for few days, or wood filler.....decisions, decsions, lol....

Ken, put the sandpaper down. Open the garage door and let the fumes out. Go inside gat a cool drink, your wife and 2 lawn chairs. Take the lawn chairs, your wife and the cool drink and sit under a nice tree and enjoy the holiday weekend!

Hello Ken,
I don't want you to feel too badly but, from what I am seeing in those pictures and the use of the wire brush in the manner you used it just makes me heart sick to see a beautiful chair ruined in the manner you did as no matter what you do at this point nothing is going to bring back the beautiful wood grain that was originally in that chair.Regardless if you use the Wunderfil or wax, nothing is going to bring it back to the beautiful finish it had when it came from the factory.I hate to be so blunt but, you would be better off to go out to some furniture restorers and learn how to restore a piece, then try your own. At this point all I can do is shake my head and feel sorry for you.

Respectfully,

Ralph Jones

Well i suppose you would have had to see the chair before I bought it Ralph. So IF this chair was ruined, Someone had RUINED it long before i got it. It had been SPRAY PAINTED brown on top of a terrible refinishing job someone had did long ago. Here is a pic of it from before i got it

Good morning Friends,
Ken wrote me an email and I am proud of him as he read between the lines of the post I inserted above and that made him even more determined to get to the bottom of the situation and get all the wire brush marks out and is going to continue working on this chair till he gets it right. I applaud him for that and I got him just mad enough to be even more determined to say well, I'll show him that I can make this chair a quality piece of furniture and as we all know it takes time to do a good job when refinishing a piece of furniture.

Good for you Ken and I can hardly wait to see the finished picture.

Respectfully,

ken, i once stripped a radio case that had been painted white. it probablt took 10 stripper applications but eventually it all came off. mostly it was the tenacity of the paint but stripper seems to work better in a warm environment as well. the one thing i did find is that if you don't shake or stir the container the methylene chloride itself will sink to the bottom and reduce the effectiveness and the first reaction is to get out the wire brush. on some of your pics it appears that there is still some finish remaining on the flake. for your next project use the same stripper because they all work a bit differently and you will get a feel for when the finish is soft enough as well as when, if at all, to use the wire brush.

Ken,
I would take mrm's advice and take a break. And don't let Ralph's comments get you down. The best way to learn is to work on something and ask a lot of questions! I think you are doing great. Sure, it would have been better to practice on a no-name piece of junk first but what you have is what you have. And like you said, it was a hunk of junk when you got it!!! Keep at it. Well, after your break.

I would take off the color you just added using stripper and maybe bleach if that doesn't work. Do some more sanding (by hand!) and then re-evaluate. Don't go down to 36 grit paper, I think it will do more damage than good. Maybe 80 grit at the roughest. In my opinion, contrary to Ralph's, is that you can get the beautiful wood grain back. Most of the wood is 3/4 inch thick, right?, that is a lot of material to work with!

Also, carefully seal your asphalt stain mix in a good container, wrap in a few layers of old newspaper, and pitch it in the trash.

Keep us updated.

from the furniture doctor by george grotz:

ashphaltum: this is a kind of a black paint found mostly on tinware from 1800 on but it was used before that and also on some furniture and carriages. it is made by dissolving asphalt , as it is found in the earth , in turpentine. then it is boiled with shellac and resin to give it drying qualities. in a single coat it is fairly transparent, and has a very brownish cast.

I had the Furniture Doctor book years ago...wonder what happened to it, oh well...the use of asphaltum was essentially the same as painting something black, some might call this 'japanning' but I'm not sure if they are exactly the same thing..close enough, same result, stuff turns black

I'm with Steve..heave your roofing tar in the toxic waste disposal and stick to normal products.

So hopefully with some sanding (which will take a little of the black out of the surface wood between the grain pores) and maybe some bleaching (which hopefully will get at both the surface and the pores) you can tone down the black and apply some new normal stain and tone up the brown (tip - don't mix anything, not even 2 colours from the same company because they could have 2 all together different chemical blends; use one colour straight from the can; why? because the chemists at Minwax are paid to know what they're doing so that the products work as hassle free as possible).

Here's a question - what did you use for the very first application as shown in your pictures at the start of the the thread? Basically there is nothing wrong with that look and maybe that should be your target. I'm sitting here looking at the back rail of a Limbert arm chair, with original finish, and it looks exactly like your first pic.

Thanks for the advice and encouragment everyone. Stonecat, to answer your question. That first pic was 2/3 minwax red oak stain and 1/3 roof asphault. I used this same mix on a chair I refinished (you can find in a previous thread) and it turned out very nice! I think the main difference is that chair was not painted and i stripped with just meth chloride and syntetic wool. So it had a nice smooth surface.

Ok, now for this chair i have test stained a small section with just minwax red mahoganey, left on for 5 minutes, and it looks much better with no black streaks I am thinking it might look very nice to additionally add a nice light coat of dark walnut stain over the mahoganey so as too add a bit of brown to it, and then a couple coats of amber shellac for the finish....does that sound pretty safe?
(After more sanding and a little wood filler where necessary of course.)

Sounds pretty safe but I would wait until the red is completly dry (honestly if you can wait 2 or 3 days I would) because of the chemical cocktail effect I alluded to above. If the red isn't dry and completely cured then the brown could 'pull' some of it up (because they likely have the same or similar thinner), if you know what I mean, and you could get a swirly rainbow of red, browny red, and brown colour, all over, and yes go thin, very thin (by this point not much may soak in at all because minwax stain also has a 'sealer' in it which I suspect is in fact a very thin varnish or hardening oil) with the brown and start in an inconspicuous area with good light, and if it looks like its pulling and mixing colour STOP and have another beverage

quote:

Originally posted by Steve06:
Ken,
I would take mrm's advice and take a break. And don't let Ralph's comments get you down. The best way to learn is to work on something and ask a lot of questions! I think you are doing great. Sure, it would have been better to practice on a no-name piece of junk first but what you have is what you have. And like you said, it was a hunk of junk when you got it!!! Keep at it. Well, after your break.

I would take off the color you just added using stripper and maybe bleach if that doesn't work. Do some more sanding (by hand!) and then re-evaluate. Don't go down to 36 grit paper, I think it will do more damage than good. Maybe 80 grit at the roughest. In my opinion, contrary to Ralph's, is that you can get the beautiful wood grain back. Most of the wood is 3/4 inch thick, right?, that is a lot of material to work with!

Also, carefully seal your asphalt stain mix in a good container, wrap in a few layers of old newspaper, and pitch it in the trash.

Keep us updated.

Good Morning My Friend,
Rather than using Ammonia and all the fumes the attachment will show that I know what I am talking about and it does work well as I have used it many times since I found the formula and as a matter of fact have been well pleased with it as well as my clients.

Respectfully,

sherwin williams currently produces a wiping stain that contains asphaltum called Gilsonite.
it is only sold in gallon cans from the commercial outlets, not the retail stores. this in combination with colored stains will produce typical mission finishes as well.